Choice, Control, And The Courage To Live

We unpack how fear and programming push us to comply, and why real freedom comes from honoring personal choice. We talk openly about selling our home, giving away our stuff, and learning to manifest together without controlling each other.

• choice as the core unit of a lived life
• how habit and fear mute curiosity and agency
• innocent control in families versus systemic control
• respecting a partner’s choices without vetoing them
• selling the house and choosing fewer possessions
• giving away good items as a practice of freedom
• collaborating on manifestation inside relationships
• when paths diverge and love means stepping aside
• hypnosis as a tool to unwind fear and guilt
• love as extension, control as constriction

Chapters

• 0:00 Slow Start, Dreams, And Mood
• 1:07 Defining Choice As Life’s Core
• 4:40 Fear, Habit, And Lost Agency
• 7:03 Manifestation Meets Other People’s Plans
• 11:08 Compliance: From Family To Systems
• 15:40 Programming We Bring Into Relationships
• 20:45 Selling The House And Choosing Less
• 24:12 Gifts, Giving Away Stuff, And Freedom
• 27:45 Collaborating Without Controlling
• 31:03 When Paths Diverge And Programs Collide

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:07

We are on the line.

SPEAKER_03: 0:09

Not fully alert, but on the line. Not truly awake, but on the line.

SPEAKER_00: 0:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 0:18

The uh the day is starting slowly today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:22

Yeah, it's I almost slept in. I did the whole 4:30 wake up. Oh shoot, it's a little too early, but then I get another 90 minutes in sleep, and now it's 6 30 and I'm laying there going, oh crap. I don't want to get up.

SPEAKER_03: 0:40

I was dreaming about my cousin. I don't know what that was about, but uh I had a dream of an owl.

SPEAKER_00: 0:48

Sorry, continue about your cousin.

SPEAKER_03: 0:50

No, it doesn't really matter. There wasn't a lot of details to it. He was there. We were talking.

SPEAKER_01: 0:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 0:55

I know in real life he's going through a loss. He just lost his partner. Uh yeah, he's a very deep feeling man, so I guess I'm aware of that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07

What are we supposed to talk about today?

SPEAKER_00: 1:09

I think we are continuing from yesterday's upbeat podcast about choice. I know we sort of went around and around and talked about other things, which I think is natural and normal and probably good, right? That we don't, if we're not compelled to dive right into one subject, that we talk about whatever comes to mind kind of thing. It's inspired.

SPEAKER_03: 1:37

Well, choice is, yeah, my thing, in a world full of international dynamics that we're watching right now, with whole regions of the world engaged in actions of control. I find that the integrity, the respect for choice is really kind of low in our world right now. And it and it makes me want to talk about choice and human choice and and how we're so darned afraid of it. We want freedom. I want freedom for me. I want my my freedom. I want to be able to choose what I want to choose, but I don't want other people to, because if they do, it might do something to disrupt me. And I guess I truly believe that choice is the way we live. We live by making choices. I say this a lot. Life isn't lived minute by minute, day by day. It's lived choice by choice. When it's being lived at all, habit takes away choice. And as a result, we don't make a lot of them. And when we're not making choice, you can tell by the look on somebody's face when they're not making choices that they don't, they're not really living. They're not really engaged in the process of life. And that's why I find myself in this work. Because what I believe is that we're so deeply programmed, especially in fear, that we're afraid of making our own choices and we're afraid of other people making choices. And we become very reliant then on our habits, which are simply to fulfill the programming that we've had. I believe that it's important to make choices, but it's also important to honor that others make choices, that they're allowed to make choices, that they're supposed to make choices. And I believe that when there's all globally this focus on control of others from external forces or from just the internal forces of needing to fit in that drive that's in us innately to want to be part of a tribe, part of a group, that the energies of the world are focused on inhibiting choices and stopping choices. And so we're not good at them. We're not good at sort of what we're naturally meant to be, which is curious and creative. And we find ourselves struggling against this larger sense of control, self-control, control from the outside, but then we're not being ourselves. And that's what I truly believe every client that comes to me is is about. I'm not free to make the choices I want to make. I feel compelled to live and be and do things that I can't seem to bring myself to do. I feel driven to do things I don't really want to do, programmed and forced. And these forces are internal and they're external and they're interfering with this natural desire to make choices. And I feel like that's the nature of our work. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00: 5:02

Thinking about choice over the last few weeks. I'm thinking about it though, in sort of a different way, almost like how do I explain this? In a manifesting way, in a way where maybe something's come to you, but it's it's clashing with something that has come to somebody else, right? A decision or something. And at that point, like where do you go? Okay, is is this my manifestation and I'm listening to the listening to the universe? Or is the other person right that maybe it shouldn't happen, right? Like when there's these clashing ideas, I see it with clients a lot where they they're trying to control family members or people around them, control their environment. And when does it get in the way of what other people have sort of set up for themselves or you know, at the spiritual level, or when they're reaching out for help from spirit and there's messages coming to them, but then this other person is saying, No, you know, when does that clash, that manifestation? So I know I'm saying this really awkwardly and not very well, but it's almost like I've been thinking with with you specifically, Les, when am I getting in the way of your manifestations? Right? Like, how do we manifest together as two human beings? So if something comes to you that you're meant to do or you feel compelled to do, my let's say, criticizing of it or something like I think, well, maybe you shouldn't do that, or you know, that's that's to me, I'm starting to recognize that that's sort of getting in the way of your higher self-manifestations, right? Does that make sense? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 7:06

I think I get what you're driving at. First of all, I think that it's important to understand that from the instant we're born, we live in a world that wants compliance and conformity. It wants it, I think, for two very different reasons. I think on a low level, on an interpersonal level, on a parent-to-child level. It's compliance comes from fear and confusion and the the past programming of the parent. The parent wants more for their child than they want for them for themselves, really often. And I can't say that's universal, but I can say that that's what we expect of parents. And I think there's some genuineness there, some genuine love. We love our creations, and I think that you know, there's a real love and a fear for your children, and so you you want them to behave, you want them to fit in, you want them to comply, you want them to learn how to be in a world, in a world of scary dynamics and cross-purposes. And I think that there's a second force in our world, which is much larger and is less organic. You know, we've watched for millennia this tendency for human beings to want to dominate other human beings, a sense of superiority, a sense of I'm gonna use the word extortion, and uh a sense of I need others to do what I need them to do for my happiness. And I will use my my force, I will use my powers to control for you to do what I say. I mean, that truly that's what we just saw take place in Venezuela. You will do things my way or not at all. There are these larger forces that really compel a sense of citizenship that is predefined and its primary characteristic is compliance. And that's when I talk about power, the ability to get other people to make choices that you want them to make so that things turn out the way you want them to turn out. So, in a world like that, with that kind of dynamic, you can only anticipate that parents and small groups and communities are going to function in some pretty extreme fear. Like this is not a time to make trouble. This is not a time to be different, this is not a time to make choices, this is not a time for you to be an individual, for you to be unique, for you to follow your own calling. Our communities try to keep us in line and keep us within a specific set of choices. And this is this is the dynamic that I observe, that there's a whole lot of innocent control, and then there's a whole lot of malicious control. And these are the things that I observe and think about when I think that choice is the highest form of living. So it's not, it's not, I'm not trying to be political. I think politics arises out of this idea. I'm trying to be human. Now, what I think is if we go back to that early programming, that for many of us, when it comes to just feeling free to be creative, feeling free to express ourselves as we truly are, we're going to be aware of these dynamics. Those two really, I think, big principal dynamics, the ones that are coming from our family that only want us to survive, to fit in, to be able to get by, to be able to get through this world. And that is really driven by fear. And so what happens is we have this programming, and then we find ourselves in couples. And I suppose ruples or whatever they're calling now. But the point is we find ourselves in families, families of choice, not just families of origin, but families of choice. And I bring to the table all of my programming, and you bring to the table all of your programming, very, very similar in nature, but very subject to our own life experience and our own interaction with it and our own level of, I'm just going to use the word fear, right? What would it mean to break out of this pattern? What would it mean to break out of this system? I thought that was the goal. Here I am spending my time trying to build a home, and you're saying you want to sell it, which is what we're going through, right? Selling our home. And we bring we bring to the table a kind of uh a resistance, right? That says, no, no, no, no. People are supposed to settle down, buy a house, work really hard till that house is paid for, build for themselves a little pool of wealth, build for themselves a little family. That's what they're supposed to do, right? And then some people see through that and say, well, no, you know what? I don't think that's for me. I don't think that that is going to um bring out the best in me. I don't think that is my purpose. I don't think that is my my life's goal. I have a different goal with my life. And there are some people who say that and we praise them, and they're the ones that have made dramatic changes. They're the inventors of the world, they're the entrepreneurs of the world. And we look at them and we forget the fact that when they were young, they were probably quite literally mentally and sometimes physically, you know, mistreated to get in line, to be like everybody else, to stop being different, to stop being compelled to head in a different direction than everybody else. And some have complied with that, and some have not. And then they go on to continue to pursue what they want, and they make and discover and create things that subsequently have changed the world, right? Through a whole series of events. And the creativity of some people triggers the creativity of other people. And for some people, the creativity is best served in a very wide open environment. And for others, the creativity is best served in a very defined environment, goal-oriented environment. What happens along the way, I believe, as human beings, is we are incrementally programmed by those who love us to simply comply because it makes everything easier. And it means I can worry less about you. Like I can't imagine what it's like to be the parent of some trailblazer, right?

SPEAKER_01: 14:44

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 14:45

Because on the one hand, you see the gift and the beauty of your child. And on the other hand, it's like, well, oh man, like I gotta, I gotta take care of you because you're moving into a world that's not gonna be really tolerant of you. You're moving into a world that's gonna be hard on you. You're moving into a world that's very costly and very scared and very reactive. And yeah, I worry about you.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

You're saying like the parent to the child, but the parent to the child.

SPEAKER_03: 15:20

I see that as sort of a family dynamic. Anyway, our world will reward from time to time those that break out of the mold, and our world will attack from time to time those who break out of the mold. And they're simply trying to push through their programming and their fear to be driven by their own curiosity and creativity. So let's get back to what you said. Every one of us brings our own set of programs to the table, and when we're with somebody who we find exciting and enjoyable because they're different, because they're not trapped within a mold. And then we start to collaborate. Let's build a life together. And then one of them wants to head in a direction that works against the other's programming, right? Triggers the other's fear. Right? I think the problem is not between them. I think the problem is how do we create a world where people are allowed to be creative? And for me, my fascination has always been understanding how we control each other, why we control each other, what's the purpose of controlling each other, how far will we go to control each other? Right? How much fear do we have? And how much, and I think this is important. How much respect do we have for the other, for the other's integrity, for the other's pure value as a being on the planet? And so for me, choice is is the unit, it's the thing, it's the magic. And we're trying to express our curiosity and our creativity in spite of a world trying to suppress it, seeking for you to comply to a larger machine, a larger machine that benefits some, but doesn't benefit everyone. And that's a fascination of mine. And so I reduce it down to the individual. How do we as individuals find ourselves unable to be ourselves? And the process of hypnosis then unwinds that.

SPEAKER_01: 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 17:40

I'm looking at your face with everything I'm saying, and I feel like I'm overwhelming you with uh uh I don't know, chaos maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 17:53

My face has subtitles, as I like to say. Yeah, I think I just want our listeners to know that like I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. In terms of selling the house, like you know, we're not I'm I'm not making you sell the house. You're not making me sell the house.

SPEAKER_03: 18:12

Like I feel like I'm kind of making you sell the house.

SPEAKER_00: 18:15

I was going to look at the opposite. No, yeah, we're both on board with this, we're both excited about it, and we're both scared of it, and we're both terrified scared of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:26

No, you can use one terrified if that's if that's a genuine one. Because it flies in the face of the program.

SPEAKER_00: 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:33

It flies in the face of what's going on in the you know, for us to say to each other, what I want to do is be free of possessions. I want to be focused on this idea of helping a hundred thousand people with their mind. We can do that from anywhere because we've got what we need here on this table, you know, a couple of computers, a microphone, and a cup of coffee. Some notebooks.

SPEAKER_02: 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 19:06

And that flies in the face of what people are trained to believe in.

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

Yeah. And I think that it is important in relationships to, and I'm talking about broadly, I'm really I'm not talking about us personally. I mean, yes, it matters for us personally, but when I talk about examples, it's really painting with a wide brush. But uh I think it's uh more and more I'm thinking it's important in relationships to try, try not to allow fear to get in the way of somebody else's decision. I mean, of course you can have fear, but try not to to could because maybe they're manifesting something and then you're sort of kiwing it or whatever, right? Like getting in the way of it. It's become really apparent to me over the last. few years like it's incredible how we are part of other people's manifestations. You know?

SPEAKER_03: 20:08

Think of that couple on Saturday.

SPEAKER_00: 20:10

Remind me again.

SPEAKER_03: 20:11

They came for the desks. They came for a desk.

SPEAKER_00: 20:14

Oh my gosh, we were getting rid of our our yeah, our desks for office desks. And they came to get one and they got the one and they were happy and then they drove off and they're like, do you mind if we come back and get the other one? So they turned around and came back and got the other one for a friend. And then while they were here they told us that it was sort of like a gaming table for them. And so we just gave them all our games and a couple little tables for free.

SPEAKER_03: 20:49

And you know so that was that was fun. And they were blown away because like we bring the stuff out and they're like oh I like that but I don't know if I can afford it. And I said for you today free. Take it as long as you take it right now you take it right now. And so yeah they went away with like three little tables and an arm full of board games. And they're they were just bungee. Yeah they were right like here we were and and I want to I want to say this you know that's breaking the mold. People don't give their stuff away for free.

SPEAKER_00: 21:25

Yeah that's right.

SPEAKER_03: 21:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 21:26

Yeah it's sort of out of the ordinary they're like are you sure are you sure? Are you sure?

SPEAKER_03: 21:31

Yeah and they just thought it was bizarre and for us it's like well anything that can reduce the amount of stuff we had for me anyway it's the way I feel makes me freer. Yeah and and that's where my mind is and maybe you know us doing this publicly doing this in front of people is the process of inviting a new idea right to our podcast listeners who are out there paying attention to our friends here in town who have watched us close the office and begin the process of selling the house and dispossessing ourselves of food as much as we possibly can you know we went to we went to a little christmas so we giving stuff away Santa coming through the door was like Christmas present but here can you do me a favor and take this off my hands no it was good stuff though it wasn't like uh oh yeah junk yeah but and it's it's yeah we've got good stuff and and we've worked hard to collect good stuff but we've reached a point in our lives where and I feel this is part of of what I'm meant to do which is to show people first that there are other choices to be made and that you're free to make those choices and to facilitate choice for the people who want to make other choices than what they've been making all their life that has been getting in the way of them becoming who they really want to be and doing the things they really want to do. And I feel like that's my work.

SPEAKER_01: 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:20

And so while you and I find ourselves going through a process that maybe at one moment is being driven by me and at the next moment is being driven by you. Right. I think that the best we can do for each other is to be honest about our fears and find our way to being able to make a choice that we're both happy with.

SPEAKER_00: 23:44

Yeah yeah it's sort of you know that I whole idea sort of came to mind earlier this year when I I thought I I saw what was it I saw something online where this girl had you know she broke free of some of a relationship or something and then suddenly everything started working out for her right and you see it a lot with people that suddenly whether male or female become separate from a relationship it's like everything sort of ticks into place and everything that they're wanting to manifest is like suddenly there for them. It's sort of an uh is the word anomaly I don't know but like it makes me think like how do how do you get that in a relationship right how do you really stay open to the other person's energies that they're putting out there to manifest you know and not and not squash them with fears and how do you how do you listen and how do you collaborate and how do you how do you move together as a unit manifesting as a unit?

SPEAKER_03: 24:54

I think sometimes you have no choice but to separate I think sometimes your your goals in life present themselves as being so diverse that they don't fit together. That doesn't mean you don't have deep compelling love for the other person a deep appreciation for the other person true enjoyment of being with them it just means that sometimes the relationship has run its course yeah yeah I think that again we have programs right like I come back to this idea it is our programs that we have around coupling and marriage and family and these these goals people have right that are very abstract in fact even separate from the who that they're that they are partnering with right I want a partner right I want a partner that looks like this and sounds like this and does this right some people are very abstract in the way they approach partners and that I believe is a program and that sometimes we have to break free of those programs. We have to realize that the way the world wants us to shape relationships is not the way it's going to work for us. I think that there are programs about how old you need to be when you get married, how old you need to be if you've decided to have children. I think there's a lot of people out there with children that never decided to have children right I think there's a lot of people out there without children who could say that they would have wanted children right I think that there are a lot of steps we take in in this world in this defined life that sometimes don't feel true to us. And then we have to unravel later. Yeah I believe that our society has evolved into a very strong very compelling system of programs but I also believe it don't fit everybody I truly believe there are some people out there who fell into their favorite job found their perfect partner made perfect kids live in a financially fruitful environment and are completely content. And to those people I believe they found their path but that doesn't mean that path is the one everyone is meant to walk and when we tell people you're supposed to do this and they don't do it we create in them confusion we create in them complexes we create in them fears we create in them compliance that doesn't suit their creativity it doesn't suit their curiosity it doesn't suit their true sense of self. Yeah yeah it's not a one size fits all world and it doesn't need to be although that scares a lot of people will look at us and say wait a second you got this beautiful place on a beautiful lake with a beautiful environment it's it's what people strive for Jesus what I strove for for years and years and years and then I got it felt blessed called myself the luckiest man alive and now yeah I don't want to do and that's bizarre. It's bizarre to me sometimes yeah yeah I think that choice is not real if you're not making them and you can choose to do the things the world encourages but you shouldn't be penalized if you don't do the things the world encourages and I do believe that when you honor your curiosity and your creativity you will find your way sometimes against headwinds sometimes against forces that are bigger than you but there's I think space on this planet for everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 29:05

Yeah and when you're going through life it's sort of like I mean of course like you said you don't need to be at a certain stage at a certain age you know I know a few people in my life that beat themselves up because they're not you know they're in their late twenties or their late thirties and they they just say to themselves well I should have this now I should have that now I should be doing that. And it's just constant judgment and I think letting go of that and just allowing life allowing yourself to be in this life and sort of seeing what what comes to you instead of beating yourself up for looking at you know it's sort of like the Jones what's it the Joneses like the Joneses you know sort of that type of mentality and I can't say I've I've never gone through that mentality. I think it's very natural for us to all hit it at some point in our life but it's certainly not helpful especially if it becomes destructive which I think it does for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03: 30:14

Yeah I think confinement and control eventually either cause us to cave in or they cause us to react. And yeah you know there are there are types of non-compliance in the world that we admire you know when you think about the artists of the world you know all all rationality would tell you don't pursue a life of art you won't fit in you won't have any money you won't have a place to live your your lifestyle is weird it's bizarre and we don't want to support that you need to get a job and take care of yourself. Yeah I think that that's an easy example of how one's curiosity and creativity and the choices that flow from that don't always fit into predefined pre-programmed life but I don't I don't think you have to go like extreme right you don't have to be living in a van down by the river I told my mom that's what we were doing there you go talk about a poor mother's program right she's she's having to live with the craziness of her kids yeah she wants so much safety and and happiness for you and you're telling her yeah well we've got that let's throw it away starting yeah so this is this has been you know I I think a little bit personal and I think I've uh sketched out maybe badly some of the big principles of of choice that I think about and that I pay attention to and that I think you know I've come to the conclusion that there is nothing more important in life than the process of choice which flows from your individualized curiosity and your creative abilities and that I'm headed off in another direction but it it's love is a creative force. Love is an extending force love goes outward with appreciation and admiration and compassion and forgiveness and that choice is the greatest expression of love to honor what is inside you that yearns to get out and the opposite of that to control someone to to try to compel someone to try to get people to comply with your wishes with your intentions your choices making someone else comply to your choice it's anti-human it's anti-love it is complete and total chaos because this internal uh desire this internal force within every human being it gets clamped down by control and now it's gonna come out in funny ways and now people are going to find themselves in conflict and people are going to argue over what we do next in relationships. When it's about when it's about fear you try to control the other when it's about the excitement of creation you stand back and love the other and allow this is not stuff we're trained in. This is not stuff we're brought up in this is not a world that we are are raised in this is the potential of human beings and we've become focused on control rather than love loving choice.

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

Yeah boy why do you sound abstract then this was a hard well yeah this was a hard one for me and besides our fogginess I feel like uh it's a my my brain feels like a little bit like it's exploding or something well it's shaping in I don't know yeah it's so dramatically different yeah that it's hard to understand right and everything that you and I might say about the program and how you might break free of the program how you might use hypnosis to break free of guilt to break free of anger to break free of fear right this that's just tiny compared to the bigger idea of where does that lead where it leads is freedom of choice yeah self-love believing in yourself and allowing yourself to move in directions that you otherwise didn't think possible. Yeah lots to think about thanks for joining us and have a good day we'll see you later