Redefining Identity & Ego; The Idea Of Letting Go

We question the promise of success and the cost of chasing “the best,” asking what remains when titles, praise, and roles change. We share personal stories of reinvention, explore ego’s grip on identity, and offer a practical shift from comparison to curiosity.

• defining identity beyond labels and roles
• how “best” and perfection trap attention outside the self
• success as a cage built from praise and habit
• ego’s need to cling and the pain of letting go
• choosing identity moment to moment through preference
• replacing comparison with curiosity and creativity
• navigating retirement, career shifts, and loss of status
• building meaning that does not depend on scarcity

Chapters

• 0:08 Dawn Banter And Today’s Topic
• 0:40 What Is Identity, Really
• 4:13 Labels, Descriptions, And Flux
• 6:03 Can Identity Be Chosen
• 8:33 Choosing Without External Measures
• 12:00 The Trap Of Being “The Best”
• 18:17 Success As A Cage
• 22:35 Ego, Comparison, And Enoughness
• 26:30 Turning Inward And Redefining Self
• 43:20 Closing Reflections And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:07

We are the line.

SPEAKER_01: 0:10

First hint of daylight. It was dark this morning.

SPEAKER_00: 0:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 0:14

Dark.

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

But it's getting lighter.

SPEAKER_01: 0:19

Yeah, it's isn't it funny the things we tell ourselves?

SPEAKER_00: 0:22

Right? I think we get about four and a half minutes each day. I think it's about that.

SPEAKER_01: 0:28

You do? Yeah. Is that based on your meteorolog meteorological acumen?

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

My one class from university.

SPEAKER_01: 0:40

Success is a dangerous thing. Yeah, that's what we thought we'd talk about today. You know, one of the things that I struggle with and have been working on lately, and I won't say successfully, I'll just say working on lately, is identity, you know, who I am and what does that mean? And can, you know, can you even put it in a label? What does identity mean?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

I think identity means to me a self that I resonate with, whether that's a deep attachment or something that's malleable. Yeah, identity is part of you know how I think, how I act around people, how I dress, how you know my work.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

Is that your identity, or is that how do you express what you perceive as your identity?

SPEAKER_00: 1:40

That's how I express how I perceive my identity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44

So if you had to, I I think of identity and I think of definitions. I think of descriptions, I think of beliefs. If you had to define yourself, right? It's easy for me to define my coffee mug. But I would define it in dimensions, I would define it in capacity, yeah. I would define it in shape. And for the coffee mug, those are permanent. But none of those things are permanent for human beings. I mean, really, what is permanent for a human being?

SPEAKER_00: 2:19

Yeah. No, I think we're always in flux. I think we're always changing, hopefully. I think identity, what comes to my mind is as a human, you have to build it up in order to tear it down. Right? We need you you need to know the contrast of what you all life is all about contrast. And I think for anything in life, you have to go through it to know what you don't want or what you do want, right? But the opposite of that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:48

Preferences and contrasts. The things I think I prefer till I experience them, and then the contrast tells me, yeah, not so much.

SPEAKER_00: 2:58

Yeah. Yeah. In the chat, we've got, I've been working on expanding my identity, letting my sense of self be bigger than what I have thought for most of my life.

SPEAKER_01: 3:13

So is identity a self-defined thing?

SPEAKER_00: 3:16

You mean do we define it in ourselves or do others define it?

SPEAKER_01: 3:21

Yeah, well, to say, you know, to say I'm trying to expand it is to suggest that I am aware of it. And it was too small. It wasn't, it wasn't satisfying me. Which again, like, you know, for me, it's what are the terms? What are the terms under which we are defining this? What are the terms under which we're describing this? To what extent is this a belief? Right? It's, you know, like I so what brings this on was the other day I was, I was, I like to have experiments with my mind. I like to play with my mind. I like to question the stuff. I like to question anything I think is real and ask where does that sense of realness come from? And so I was doing some writing and I wrote down a list of questions, and I played with them for a while. So here's the list. I found a piece of paper. Now, if I was going to describe who I am, and I use the word who as my unique self, what I am, you know, there's lots of things that are common to everybody else. You know, I could say I'm a man, right? And although it there's some spectrum there a little bit, but it's still like everybody's got one of these things. I can I can ask myself, you know, how tall I am, what my racial background is, what language I speak. These are all things I can describe about myself, but they're not really who I am. They're things I do, and they can change. And if it can change, then it's not who you are. It's a description of how you are being presently.

SPEAKER_00: 5:10

Presently, yeah. That's that's a good it it sort of reminds me. I I remember I have a vague memory of this. When you either move as a kid or you change schools, or you go from public school to high school, or from high school to college or university, there's this exciting moment. I don't know, I I used to go through this of deciding like who do I want to be, right? And so if you had known me in high school, I was I was this transient, I don't know if that's the right word, but like I was goth uh for a little bit. I emu or emo emo didn't exist back then, but I was I was never a jock or cool, you know, part of the cool crap. But I was this sort of floater that went through different groups, and I guess maybe trying to find who I was, but honestly, when I think back, mainly I I I just had good friends in those groups, so it did it wasn't like I need to be goth or or I need to be nerd or gamer or you know, all these people, all these groups that I sort of flowed through.

SPEAKER_01: 6:36

So is my identity something that I can create?

SPEAKER_00: 6:40

I think so, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 6:42

So I can change it?

SPEAKER_00: 6:43

I think so.

SPEAKER_01: 6:44

So my identity isn't even permanent. Is my identity ever anything more than a belief in my head and a set of practices I associate with it? Yeah, I think sorry I gotta go clean my glasses before I can see you.

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

Um I I think that identity can be shifted. I think it can it doesn't have to be static. I do believe that we cling to identity maybe too much sometimes, but that's to each their own, right? And I do believe that it is something that that can absolutely change if you want to make changes.

SPEAKER_01: 7:33

So the exercise I did was if I could not use any kind of dimensions, if I couldn't use any kind of descriptions, if I couldn't use age, if I couldn't use careers and jobs or occupations, if I couldn't use belongings or hobbies or practices, things that I do. Yeah, how would I describe who I am?

SPEAKER_00: 8:00

Blob. No, spirit.

SPEAKER_01: 8:06

All of these things are things that are either, well, everything's chosen, but most of these things are chosen, sometimes chosen for us. And I'll come back to that question I answered before we started in a minute, but these are all changeable, right? I can change my weight, I might not be able to change my height, but in today's world, I can change my eye color, I can change my hair color, I can change my style, right? I can't really change my age per se, but boy, oh boy, I just spent two and a half years at the gym and I feel like 10 years younger. And and everybody tells me I look younger. So I think that there's my age is something that I can embrace or not embrace. I've had so many different occupations. And that's one of the things I'm I'm actually part of my identity, I suppose, that I'm really proud of is that I've made changes, that I've deliberately said, enough of this. This doesn't make me happy, I'm not doing it anymore. In spite of, you know, success or failure. We'll come back to that question. You know, the question I'm talking about. My hobbies have changed over and over and over, right? And I find myself doing things, you know, uh during different eras of my life. And my practices in terms of getting up and and being myself have definitely changed and often are defined by where I am more than what I might say who I am. Right? These are all things that just change. But these are the things if somebody said, you know, who are you? Well, hi, I'm Les. I am a professor at a college, I teach business, yeah, I teach law, I teach sustainability, was a description, it included occupation and practices and things like that, that I was really I kind of liked. It felt good, it feed my my ego, right? Yeah, my need to feel like I serve a purpose in the world, that I have value, that I'm doing something meaningful, that I'm engaged as a person who is right, all of those things. And it was an identity that I constructed for myself during a period of time in my life that it reached a point where I didn't like it anymore. I didn't, I didn't want to continue in that environment. But that was my identity, and I and it was mostly in my mind because anybody who met me, right, for the first time, unless I told them that, they had no idea. And today, when I meet new people, I fall back to those kinds of descriptions that aren't even true anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:00

I talk about who I was, I talk about what I was, I talk about my level of success, right? I I pick and choose the things in my past that sound, I think sound to others good. And that's what I present. Right. I would never say, oh, yeah, I was the guy who yelled at his kids. Right?

SPEAKER_02: 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:24

Like that's not that's not something I want to include. You know, I'm divorced. That's not something I want to talk about. Very much still a part of my past, part of my experience, but not who I would have thought and said I was. And so for me, like you and I, we we we come to a quick answer from that question. But if tomorrow you changed your occupation, if tomorrow you decided to go to the gym or stop going to the gym so that your shape would change, if you were to decide to engage all new things in an all new place, what is the part of you that is you?

SPEAKER_00: 12:05

You're asking me?

SPEAKER_01: 12:06

Absolutely, there's nobody else here, but I'm asking everybody who's listening.

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:12

As the sun is starting to show itself.

SPEAKER_00: 12:14

Yeah. I think if I was to start over, if that's what you're asking.

SPEAKER_01: 12:20

No. Oh, I'm not asking who you are. I'm not asking what you do differently. Because I but that's where we're headed with that. I that's I guess you know, I'm jumping ahead. I'm jumping ahead to the idea that if all of these things are changeable and it's a function of what I believe is possible, yeah. What stops me from being a new identity? Like right now. I don't have to wait till tomorrow or Monday or on the new year or sometime at the end of the next month. I could right now choose my identity and live that.

SPEAKER_00: 13:02

Yeah, and I think I think uh I've definitely thought that exact thing in the past about myself, about how you can just make a decision to um change. The sticking to the change is is a little different, but yeah, I agree with you that you can you can just make a make a decision moment to moment. I think Joe Dispenza talks about that too.

SPEAKER_01: 13:26

I I think it's possible, right? But it sure doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_00: 13:30

No. I think it doesn't happen because we well, let's say our ego says, well, no, I want to talk about my my past and who I am now or who I think I am, or I I want to feel that little tiny blip of dopamine that says, yeah, I've made it, or I you know I'm a I don't know if good person comes to mind in my mind, but I'm I've made it or I'm successful, all those things that we cling to in Western culture. And it's funny in the chat, I was I was actually gonna bring this up, but I wasn't sure if it was if I was remembering it properly. But in the chat here in North America, when we are asked what we do, we talk about our careers, but in Australia, when they ask what do you do, they are asking about what you do for fun, for recreation, very different focus on defining ourselves in that society. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:33

But it's interesting that that's always the first question.

SPEAKER_00: 14:37

Yeah. I mean, let's let's normalize saying that we're infinite beings of spiritual awareness.

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

It's not a great, great conversation started because that's what we all are.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:52

So I suppose so what's happening with you and your infinite potential? Yeah. Well, that's like for me, it's always about the mind and the way mind creates what we perceive to be our reality. Most of the time, that mind is creating things that are based in fear, and so they tend to be negative and critical, they tend to be defining and limiting. They they we tend to on a public way try to focus on our successes, and on a private way, we very much focus on our failures and our negative aspects. We we dwell and ruminate on, yeah, some pretty pretty small moments that have had big impacts. Yeah. It's just, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, I'm thinking about my identity. I'm thinking about how I see myself and I encourage others to do the same, right? How much, you know, let's let's go to that question, you know, like is it possible that success at a job or a hobby is actually the worst thing that can happen to you? Is it possible that somebody patting you on the back and saying, good job, you're good at this, and then you just keep doing it? Not because you love it, not because you're even at your best when you're doing it, but because somebody else noticed you now maybe pays you, maybe treats you like you're special because of this success that you've had. Yeah, this thing that everybody else values, right? You you commit to and spend your time on beyond what you would want to spend your time on, in contrast to that.

SPEAKER_00: 16:53

Yeah. I I do think that, like I said before we started the podcast, I do think that I'm not sure if it's like the worst thing that can happen to you, but it's certainly not helpful in many situations. I I think, like I said in the beginning, we sort of have to go through it to know what we don't want. We need, as humans, we need that contrast. You know, I really want that career. Ah, maybe I don't really want that career. I really want that relationship. Ah, maybe I don't really want that relationship. And all these different things we need to experience in order to know what the opposite is or something not like that. So, you know, I I guess I'll I'll go into what I said I was I was gonna talk about. I went through school to be a designer, and when I graduated, I manifested the crap out of a certain job. And I was doing like every kind of manifesting technique there was to get this job because I thought that's what I wanted. If I could put that label next to my name, you know, Hillary Leehan something designer, I would you could say the thing without saying the company. Yeah. Oh, so Hillary, like toy designer. That was really that felt good. Also, if I could say that, this is an interesting part of it that off I often think about and wonder how it applies now if it doesn't. So before I could even call myself a toy designer, it's like I didn't allow myself to be fun. I wanted my desk to be full of silly things. You remember it after I got the job. I had the I had like little little cars on it, little Legos, little smushy things. I don't even know, like tons of tons of silly stuff that made me feel light and silly and fun, right? And and so I ended up man getting the job, and not much longer later, a couple months, my soul was like, nope, this is not, this is not what you're doing. And I ended up with I mean, all I can call it now is like this neurological sleeping disorder. And it sent me flat on my on my ass. I had to let go of everything. I was working as a toy design, you know, an intern, basically intern toy designer, an outdoor kitchen designer at the same time. And I had to, within like two weeks of this sleeping issue, I had to let go of my whole life. And I was a Wreck. So with all that being said, I think our ego can push us and push us and push us to the brink of, I mean, we hear it a lot, the corporate story, right? But like burnout and people just saying like this wasn't, this wasn't my path. I climbed the ladder, I kicked other people off the ladder, you know. And it just wasn't wasn't for me. So I thought I wanted that life. My ego was constantly telling me, you're gonna be the best designer in the world, you're gonna be this, you're gonna be that. And it's funny how I went into everything like that, right? Up until 2018. I went into to every every um job idea that I ever had, which was a lot, guys. I was gonna be like the best in the world. And so I had this incredibly driven ego. And the letting go of that life was hard. There was a lot of forgiveness involved, a lot of like, why in the hell did I go through that much schooling, years of schooling to get to have this disorder, sleeping disorder, and then just totally change my life into something else, you know? So I think long story short, it it can it can put us in not helpful situations, but if I'm to look back on it, I think I have enough mind now or enough a sort of i introspection, if that's the word, to look at it and say, okay, yeah, I I sort of understand that I wasn't maybe on the most helpful path for my life, but again, I needed to go through that to know that I didn't want that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:09

I'm I I want to observe something and I don't want it in any way to sound critical because I think it's really, really normal. I think it is broadly normal. I think it's programmed into us from the instant we are certainly in classrooms, but it within families, if there are multiple children, right? This idea of the best, right? I think the best, that sort of comparison, that competition that it creates, you know, who did the best job, who got the highest score on the test, who's the best, right? Whose art is the best, right? The best is something that's really programmed into us, and we come about it really innocently, right? This is not, and and the goal, of course, is is sounds wonderful, right? Like why I need to strive. I it's good for me, it's good for the world if I strive. At least that's the program, right? And I've worked with a couple of clients on this, and the best to me is kind of like the idea of perfect. It's unattainable, it's defined in really loose ethereal terms that can't really fit any kind of constant definition in any meaningful way. We use the term like it's something to aspire to. It's perfect. I want the perfect thing, I want it to be perfect, I need this and that in my life to be perfect, right? And it it creates an illusory goal that is completely unattainable because it's a thing within a constantly changing background. And as long as the background is constantly changing, perfection can't be attained. And in the same way, if I'm gonna be the best, what I need is for others to be worse. If I'm gonna be the best, I'm not really in control of that because I can't control what other people attain. Yeah, and so I'm constantly striving and comparing, and as a result, I'm never actually in the moment, and I'm never really in touch with myself. Yeah, it is while I'm trying to be the best, right? I am outwardly focused and seeking outward approval and seeking outward reward. Now it's a simple shift, right? And it starts instead of a comparison outside yourself, but it's decision of what you prefer, right? What do I enjoy for me based on my curiosity and my creativity? What do I want for me without reference to the external world and others? And that then becomes I want to be the best I can be. I want to take myself to my limits. I want to do my best. I want to go to my limits, and I want to push myself past them. And whenever you see somebody totally engrossed in something, and it's easy to see kids with their video games this way, right? They're totally engrossed. They're completely fascinated, they're completely pushing themselves through their mistakes. They make a mistake, they go, ah, and they bark and they're gonna figure this out. And then they stay with it and they push themselves, and they push themselves, and they practice and they try and they keep going, right? And when that is rewarding something internal in you, something moving you, your own creativity, your own curiosity, the things that engage you without effort, and you're pursuing them to their highest, to your highest potential, right? Then you're being your best. And the instant you shift that focus to outside of you and compare yourself to others, you're now in a never-ending battle because the instant you might think you're the best, along comes somebody that's better, right? Better, at least in your mind. And that creates dissatisfaction in your own personal pursuits. So I think this happens really honestly. I think that we're all raised that way. And it it expresses itself not just in a single thing. It's like I want to have the best house, I want to have the best bank account, I want to be the best person, right? And this is where I think some of our society is really lost in, right? When I think about how the wealthy are amassing money, not for the purposes of the money, but for the purposes of saying I have more than everybody else. And that makes me a better person. I am more successful in this society because I have more. I have more notoriety, I have more prestige, I'm working at the best firm, at the best company. I am the best this. And I think that that's that's kind of an eternal, internal thing that sets us up, right? Because then we marry our identity to this thing. And, you know, I like to use the example. I, you know, I love baseball, and I think it's just this beautiful metaphor for life. And baseball players turn 40 and they say, you know, I'm gonna play this game till somebody takes my uniform off my back. In other words, I'm gonna play until somebody says you're no good anymore. And then they go through a crisis because this is what I am. This is what I've always been. This is how I define myself. I'm the best ball player that came from my hometown. I'm the best ball player in my whole circuit. I'm the best ball player on my team. I'm the best ball player that ever lived. And now I'm not a ball player because my age and my body have just simply reached a point where I can't be better than others anymore. And then their identity is really shaken. People will strive for a career of any kind, and they reach a point where, you know, I am I am the chosen one. I work in this department, and everybody looks to me. I am the leader of my department, I'm the leader of my division, I'm the leader of my region, I'm the leader of the company, and I'm moving my way up, and I have the most this and the best that, and I've accomplished this. And it becomes an identity, how success can lead you to a place where you have such a strong self-definition, and then that changes. And then you're left with, well, who am I then? If I'm not doing this anymore, who am I? And what if by chance, deep inside me, I've been led down a path because I bought into the idea of being the best and striving, and what other people define as success, and what other people define as a good person, and what other people defined as a good man or a good woman. I've been led by that down a path, and I find at the my place on that path for the whole thing to be completely unrewarding, the whole thing to be filled with contradictions, the whole thing to be filled with pain, the whole thing to be filled with limitations. It's now a box, it's now a cage, and I have to keep doing this. I have to keep being that, right? And it doesn't, you it doesn't you don't have to be somebody who strives to be the best. You can be just somebody striving to be successful in our society. And I want to own my own home. Like somehow that is a defining characteristic of success. I want to have a career, like that's a defining characteristic. These are all programs that we we engage early, early, early in our lives, and we don't question them ever again. And we find they take us down a path that might be, you know, emotionally and physically painful, so much so that we end up with sleep issues or eating issues or drinking issues or smoking issues or drug issues or gambling issues, like all sex issues, all these things that we seek to distract ourselves from the pain of the life that we honestly, with good intentions and followed the program, tried to create for ourselves. What I'm driving at is not to be critical of anybody's choices. I'm not trying to be negative or belittling because I believe that this is a program that most of us get programmed into. And I believe most of us suffer because we can't be the best. There's only ever one best in a room full of 30 kids in a classroom, there's only one best. And in a corporation of 500 employees, there's only one best. And so you you find yourself in a world where being the best is a virtual impossibility. I I used to call it the lottery ticket, right? You know, uh a corporation's got hiring 20 entry-level people every year, and they come in, and only one of them or two of them might make it to the next level, and only one of them make it to the level up. And there's this steady flow of new people in, and corporations call it up or out, and they mean it. You're either moving up or you're out, and only one is going to be the best, which means everyone else is dealing with these ideas from perspective of unattainment, and which is what does it mean to be the best? And and it might become a sense of failure. Yeah, it starts to become a self-definition, an identity that we buy into a belief. I'm sorry, yeah, your question.

SPEAKER_00: 33:23

No, that's okay. It was more of a like, what what are we losing to be the best? And and in what eyesity. Well, yeah, and and in what eyes are we the best, right? Like the best is so subjective.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

Absolutely. And and it's to me, it's like the idea of perfect, yeah. And it's so much outside yourself. It's it's a stupid idea that drives us. It's an idea that we embrace early on, very young, and then we use it to define ourselves later.

SPEAKER_02: 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:56

And this is where I think identity and ego can become negative. Identity and ego for those that have six success in this chosen path that they are measured by others as better than most.

SPEAKER_02: 34:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 34:15

Right. These people have their own failure, ultimate at the end of the road, nothing lasts forever. They have this ultimate end to this nice string of successes. Or early on, you don't get the success. You're not the best. You don't think of yourself in those terms, and you start to think of yourself in other terms. And now your beliefs about yourself start to become: I can't, I'm not good enough, I'm not allowed, I'm not worthy, I'm not talented enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good looking enough, I'm not enough. All these things that I'm not enough of just start to get shortened into I'm not enough. Right. And so for me, I I have a goal for myself, which is to kick the crap out of this idea of identity. I want, I want rid of it. I want rid of it for myself. And for those reasons, and I think they're, you know, personally self-love reasons, I want it for everyone else. Now, for those out there that are having success, that are achieving what they want, who feel like they're meant to be doing what they're doing, right? I'm gonna guess that there's an element inside themselves of creativity and curiosity that fits that thing they're doing, and that it's certainly possible that they're building an identity that suits them, that in many respects serves them. And I'm not gonna say that it's universally bad, but I'm gonna say, on the whole, for the bulk of people, they're trying to be a square peg and a round hole. They're trying to create themselves into something that they're not, that doesn't suit their unique authenticity, that doesn't take them to the kind of fulfillment and satisfaction and happiness and general peace that they could attain by not trying to fit in a system that really only rewards those running the system.

SPEAKER_02: 36:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:36

And I and I don't want to sound like a malcontent or a discontent. I don't want to get all political. I want to stay psychological. I want to stay in the mind. I want to stay in the humanness of our desires and our preferences and our interests. I want us to love ourselves and feel entitled and worthy to be who we are, whatever that is, without paying attention or putting too much stock in careers, in money, in prestige, in looks, and turn inward and ask yourself, what do I really want from me? Not what does the world want me to be? What has the world rewarded me and kept me moving forward in that has led me to a place now where I don't understand why I'm so dissatisfied with this. Right? You know, the world, you know, I'll talk about me. The world rewarded me and patted me on the back enough that I went back to school and I studied and I achieved. And I went to law school and I studied and I achieved. And I got a good job and I worked hard and I achieved. And right when things were like on the cusp of taking off for me, I looked around me and saw the life that was waiting for me, and I didn't want it anymore. It didn't serve me as a human being. There was no room for music anymore, there was no room for creativity anymore. There was no room for even wearing sweatpants anymore, right? There was no room for choosing not to shave some days, right? There was no room for these things that were, I guess, part of who I was internally driven to be. So I I I I think about identity, and identity can really be a cage. And sometimes that cage is built on the words of others and the praise of others until you're in the middle of that cage and it's very uncomfortable, and you can't find a way out without really making a mess of things. And it was all done with the best of intentions. You're a good-hearted, innocent human being who was raised to try to do this because the world seems to reward that, but for some of us, the rewards of money and power are not satisfying. And we become something and we compare ourselves to others, and then we ultimately fall off that comparison, and then our identity is rocked. It's really possible to be the best hockey player in small town Ontario and make your way to a level where you're just not the best hockey player anymore. And what do you do then when you've listened to everybody's parents tell you how talented you are, when you've listened to everybody's parents tell you how you're destined for the NHL, when you've listened to all the coaches want you as their starting player on Their team, right? And then you're faced with, I guess I'm not the best anymore. And your identity has been built around that. And it can be the same with an occupation. It can be the same with your looks, right? It can be the same with your intelligence. Really anything that human beings do when we're living outside ourselves like that.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

Yeah. And I I think if we're heavily attached to it, when it's apparent that you're letting it go, whether it's by force, a health issue, even just retirement. We have many clients that come to us because they're they're in retirement and they feel like they they've gone into maybe a little bit of a depression. They're they're anxious because they don't know who they are anymore or what to do. Yeah, identity is huge. And I asked the question, not to take up too much more time, but like I asked the question before even starting, you know, are ident are identity and ego one and the same. And yeah, I don't I don't think they're one and the same anymore. I wondered about it, but I I feel like ego, how do I say it? Like ego wants us to cling, and identity is the thing that it wants to cling.

SPEAKER_01: 41:32

I like that. Yeah. And I think that there is, it's not always positive forces. I think that that's worth talking about too. What shapes our view of ourselves are not always pats on the back and praise.

SPEAKER_02: 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:46

In fact, more often it is criticism, it is judgment. I'm going to suggest that when identity, identity is the conclusion we come to that stops us from pursuing our creativity and our curiosity. And ego is the judgment of what we have and haven't attained. Because a lot of people's ego is very hard on them. Again, this is another discussion we can pursue. I'm going through it, right? Like all the things, you know. When you've been around long enough, you've done a lot of things. And when you've done a lot of things, and you identify yourself with those things, those practices, those occupations, those experiences of the past, good and bad, you start to create this identity which isn't you. Because you could change what you do, and you could change what you wear, and you could change how you look. You can change how you spend your days, and you don't disappear. So that can't be who you are.

SPEAKER_02: 42:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

And I don't think we live in a world that encourages people to go after the question, who am I? And I believe that when I have engaged that question with my clients, they have become happier. They have become lighter. They've become excited about the potential that still remains in the in the heartbeats that they have left. Yeah, I know we're running out of time today. So I guess, you know, I don't know where we'll pick it up. Maybe we'll pick it up tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00: 43:28

Yeah. Yeah. We'll continue.

SPEAKER_01: 43:31

Yeah. My goal is just again to create freedom, yeah, not to create judgment.

SPEAKER_00: 43:36

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for joining us, and we will see you later.